Author Topic: Legion - any help here?  (Read 80 times)

Offline dgbygrace

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Legion - any help here?
« on: March 11, 2012, 06:41:54 pm »
So I have a question to pose....Luke 7:33-35.  When Jesus commanded Legion out of the guy.  They begged not to be sent to the abyss.  I believe the abyss is where the fallen angels are held until the time comes back.  And honestly I think it is a dimension or something...but obviously some haven't been sent there yet.  So following the story Jesus allows them to go into the pigs, which they immediately kill.  Why kill them?  I think so they can be free to go and find a human host who uses their free will to let them in.  What do you guys think?  Why did Jesus let them go rather then banish them???
The only true work of art is a human soul,
all else is but a reflection

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Offline cizz

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Re: Legion - any help here?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 01:06:25 am »
Hey sis, we have two accounts of this story, Luke 8 and Mark 5

Lukes: 
And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in [any] house, but in the tombs.

When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

In Lukes account I wonder why the man thought Jesus would torment him?

Marks:
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Same question, why did he think Jesus would torment him?

Possible answer from Mark:

Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any [man] tame him.

compare Luke's verse of this:
(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

Okay, so everything that "Legion" asked Jesus not to do had already been something done to him <the naked man himself that believed and started to precieve he was a "we" called legion because a legion of people had been trying to tame him..He was not in his right mind from the influences and the acts others were trying to use and do against him to tame him.. (Mark's) And he asked him, What [is] thy name? And he answered, saying, My name [is] Legion: for we are many. Jesus was still talking to the man, not something animated outside the man.

The abyss or deep Mark renders as this:

And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

This goes really deep! Who was the legion that was trying to tame the man? (the ones that were afraid to see him in his right mind?) so what exactly were they trying to tame his mind into? not a right one to be afraid when they saw him in his right mind..?

So how come the man ended up out of his right mind away? It is obvious that swine were not considered clean aniamls so why were the people raising and herding them? Maybe that these people were hiding what they were doing and the man was screaming out their offensive and breaking of the law..telling on them..?

But if the man had been right in his observation and knowledge why did he still end up not in his right mind? He should have been justified with their laws and when one was being broke. ??

Back to the accounts of the story:

Mark:  And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

So, the man was treating himself no better than the others were treating him!  huh

the swine were suppose to be the only unclean things, but yet the man ended up with the unclean in him which the unclean asked to be placed back into what was already deemed unclean, the swine...?  :blink:

Geez!  cz047 so let me re-run all this over again with logical side of brain, what would cause people to get sick of someone that points out their sins to them all the time, to where they abuse that person and run them off? I hate nosy azz's that see only my sins and not their own! LOL!   

 cz055 make it clean or unclean, just make up your mind! My answer and mind makes it both at the same time, clean and unclean mixed together, just like life and death, we are doing both at the same time...diving into the deep is crazy but so worth it when you resurface and see both sides of the pool!

so in essense, Lukes rendering of this verse spoke volumes: (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

 The people where devils and yet "the" single devil drove the man to run away into the wilderness...HIM... and Them, both, a legion, even not being in his right mind his mind spoke right..

By the end of the story in both accounts the swine became unclean for all of them...again! Po' little piggyz  notfair

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Offline dgbygrace

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Re: Legion - any help here?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 01:33:25 am »
First of all I LUV the pic!!

Second.  I have to go reread and ask on that one, you make some good points.  And I forgot there was the second account!!!

BRB!!
The only true work of art is a human soul,
all else is but a reflection

Offline dgbygrace

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Re: Legion - any help here?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 02:03:46 am »
Ok...a couple more things to throw in the mix:

2 Corinthians 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

 13For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

2 Corinthians 5:13

Amplified Bible (AMP)
13For if we are beside ourselves [mad, as some say], it is for God and concerns Him; if we are in our right mind, it is for your benefit,

This verse has always made me wonder

Now back to that story.  I searched for the word abyss.  It actually is not used in the KJV at all.  I like to use the amplified version, and yes I know some disagree.  But what I do is look it up there and then go to the blueletter KJV version to find the original words/meanings

Transliteration

abyssos
   

Pronunciation

?'-b?s-sos (Key)

Part of Speech

feminine noun
   

Root Word (Etymology)

From ἄλφα (G1) (as a negative particle) and a variation of βυθός (G1037)

TDNT Reference

1:9,2
   

Vines

View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) bottomless

2) unbounded

3) the abyss

a) the pit

b) the immeasurable depth

c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons


Proverbs 15:11

    Amplified Bible
    Sheol (the place of the dead) and Abaddon (the abyss, the final place of the accuser Satan) are both before the Lord--how much more, then, the hearts of the children of men?

Jonah 2:5

    Amplified Bible
    The waters compassed me about, even to [the extinction of] life; the abyss surrounded me, the seaweed was wrapped about my head.

Luke 8:31

    Amplified Bible
    And they begged [Jesus] not to command them to depart into the Abyss (bottomless pit).

Romans 10:7

    Amplified Bible
    Or who will descend into the abyss? that is, to bring Christ up from the dead [as if we could be saved by our own efforts].

Revelation 9:1

    Amplified Bible
    THEN THE fifth angel blew [his] trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth; and to the angel was given the key of the shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit).

Revelation 9:2

    Amplified Bible
    He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft.

Revelation 9:11

    Amplified Bible
    Over them as king they have the angel of the Abyss (of the bottomless pit). In Hebrew his name is Abaddon [destruction], but in Greek he is called Apollyon [destroyer].

Revelation 11:7

    Amplified Bible
    But when they have finished their testimony and their evidence is all in, the beast (monster) that comes up out of the Abyss (bottomless pit) will wage war on them, and conquer them and kill them.

Revelation 17:8

    Amplified Bible
    The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come.

Revelation 20:1

    Amplified Bible
    THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand.

Revelation 20:3

    Amplified Bible
    Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time.


I believe the reference to Orcus's idea that the abyss was the holding place for the dead is wrong.  See Proverbs verse.  People who died went to Sheol.  They abyss was specifically set up for demons.  So again my question is why didn't Jesus send them there then?  It is very clear that they knew He had the authority to do so.  What you have brought up sis is good but to me speaks to how the demons came to be there in the first place.  For some reason I am thinking that the answer I am looking for lies with free will.  That free will is not as simple as some make it sound.  We do have free will now but the Lord is still in charge.
The only true work of art is a human soul,
all else is but a reflection

Offline cizz

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Re: Legion - any help here?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 03:45:44 am »
Orcus is the punisher of those who break oaths, a god of the underworld, so he/she/it would be like Satan?

What is the "abyssos" in ancient Hebrew?

The verse from Proverbs 15:11

Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

shĕ'owl and 'abaddown

Abaddown is, place of destruction, destruction, ruin, Abaddon





Offline dgbygrace

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Re: Legion - any help here?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 05:31:59 pm »
shĕ'owl and 'abaddown

Two different places though...
The only true work of art is a human soul,
all else is but a reflection